STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
OK. So what, if anything, do these incidents tell us about the security environment? Juliette Kayyem has been listening with us to the facts we know so far. She was an assistant secretary at the Department of Homeland Security in the Obama administration and now serves as the faculty chair of the Homeland Security Project at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. Good morning. Welcome back.
JULIETTE KAYYEM: Good morning.
INSKEEP: People will hear of two incidents in one day and connect them somehow. What does the evidence show you so far?
KAYYEM: The evidence right now shows that they are likely unconnected, and the FBI has not said that they're treating them as similar, obviously, to terror-related events. We'll be careful about motivation at this stage. Occurred on the same day, and so they will look at any connection, but the modes of attack are different, the histories of the attackers are different. And so they'll look at separate though maybe related motivations, given that they did occur on the same day and that they appear to be attacks perpetrated for terror or political reasons.
INSKEEP: At a time when the United States is at war in the Persian Gulf region - and we can't be sure about a connection to that either. But there is a war on. So what is the job of Homeland Security officials in a situation like this?
KAYYEM: Well, I'm glad you mentioned that 'cause people will sort of turn to the war as an obvious motivation. And I want to say, we don't know that yet. But we would be - it would be very obvious for the FBI to look at that connection, and the Department of Homeland Security. And the reason why is because when the war started, you know, it sort of - originally, it was going to be a quick strike. Now we see a regional war. But most people in my field would say, well, now we're looking at the global consequences of it. We're seeing it in, you know, oil prices and the economy, but you're also going to see it in the potential for terrorism.
There's two types of terror that we worry about in a war like this. One, of course, is state-sponsored, which Iran is known for. It utilizes through Hezbollah, in its support of Hezbollah, but - and - but also, state-sponsored attacks against the U.S. military and individuals in the U.S. and outside the U.S. The other is the kind that is harder to detect, which is, of course, this radicalization of individuals who are angry about the war who are tied to ISIS or tied to a motivation. So in the case of the synagogue, what you would be looking at as an FBI agent is, did the perpetrator, who is of Lebanese descent - did he target the synagogue because he's antisemitic or - and I should say or/and - he viewed the synagogue as a proxy for Israel? And then you're bringing in sort of a war motivation. That is what people think they know now, but we don't know that now, and so that's what the FBI will be investigating.
INSKEEP: Part of the story here is private security in these incidents. Synagogues now routinely have private security guards.
KAYYEM: Yeah.
INSKEEP: Universities routinely have private security guards. What more needs to happen to make them secure?
KAYYEM: Well, I mean, part of that is that defensive posture - that you have to continue with it. It's not - it is so, you know, depressing, I'll just say, in my expert analysis, that we have to look at synagogues and temples and places of worship for the Jewish community as sort of fortresses, but that's where we are now. So most large Jewish institutions will have security guards, will have done trainings, will alert their employees as well as their members about how to protect themselves. And I just want to say, you know, not only is that horrible for the Jewish community, but as a place of faith, which is intended to be open. It really is inconsistent with how any institution of faith would view itself.
INSKEEP: Yeah.
KAYYEM: So that is being done. There's individual or there's grants for religious institutions that may be under threat. That is the defensive posture, and it works, I have to be honest. We saw that yesterday, where that - it's the private security that really minimize, in ways that we really can't measure given how bad that incident could have been - that minimized the harm.
On the other side, in this threat environment that we are facing in the United States now, that it's individuals and communities that have to step forward if they see, hear, listen to behavior by people they know, or even strangers, that looks like they will be - that they are becoming radicalized. In almost all of these instances, it's not an on-off switch. An individual who may perpetrate this, they are saying things. They are talking to people. They are collecting weapons. They are angry in ways that they hadn't been before. And we're dependent on their professional communities, their neighborhood communities and also their religious communities to step forward and say, this person has changed and he's a danger to others.
INSKEEP: Can you talk with me a little bit more about that? I feel like...
KAYYEM: Yeah.
INSKEEP: ...You're touching on something important and also subtle. We don't want everyone spying on their neighbors.
KAYYEM: Yes.
INSKEEP: We don't want everyone paranoid. But there is that saying, if you see something, say something. That's effectively what you're telling us here.
KAYYEM: That's exactly right, that in almost all of these instances, there's a trail - what we call leakage in law enforcement. The person is giving hints of what they are about to do. Some of it is just the collection of materials, explosives, but a lot of it is online. They're communicating to family members. Their anger seems different. It's not perfect. But on the other hand, it is a way in which others around that individual are sort of obligated to step forward, whether it's a parent, a congregant in a religious institution - whatever it is - to step forward and say, something is different, and then hope that it's stopped in time.
INSKEEP: You alluded to the idea that places of worship are supposed to be open...
KAYYEM: Yeah.
INSKEEP: ...Which strikes me as a really important point. And it is also true of universities. They're supposed to be places for free thinking...
KAYYEM: Right.
INSKEEP: ...And openness. And now we have to make them into fortresses to some extent. What would you encourage people to do to maintain a free society...
KAYYEM: Yeah.
INSKEEP: ...To maintain these places as feeling safe? Or do we simply have to accept the risk that that's what you have to go with?
KAYYEM: I think we have to accept the risk. I mean, I talk about being safer, not safe, in the world we live in, which is you're just trying to minimize risk through a variety of means and defensive posture - see something, say something, be aware of your surroundings. But we have to accept a certain amount of risk if we want to continue to be the society that we are. So you think about a university and its openness - this exchange of ideas, this exchange of sort of just people walking around. That's part of a university. And then you think of religious places of worship. Think about a synagogue or a church or a mosque. It is that they want to be welcome, and to be welcome, you have to be open. So think about safer, not safe, and also reducing risk, but you're not going to get it to zero.
INSKEEP: Juliette Kayyem at Harvard. Thank you so much. Really appreciate your help.
KAYYEM: Thank you.
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