For years, police have spent billions of tax dollars on watching us, tracking us, and recording us. In the largest police department in the country, these surveillance systems were paid for and adopted without the kind of public oversight cities usually require. In the wake of 9/11, the New York Police Department built one of the most sophisticated and omnipresent surveillance systems in the country. And while decisions were being made about what tech to adopt and how much to pay for it, few outside the NYPD were consulted. Not the City Council nor the public. For over a decade, the only paper trail of these purchases were offline, stored in filing cabinets, inaccessible to the public. Today on the show, how the country’s largest police department built its surveillance system, and the fight to get police everywhere to tell us how they’re watching us. Read: Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletterOur weekly Indicator round-up newsletterFollow: InstagramTikTokYouTubeFacebookSupport public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.This episode was produced by Vito Emanuel and edited by Marianne McCune. It was fact-checked by Sierra Juarez and engineered by Cena Loffredo. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer.Music: NPR Source Audio - "Funky Space Mama," "Sunday Lights," and "Blammo"See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Polling is facing an existential crisis. People aren't picking up the phone. Nobody wants to talk to pollsters. Trust is on the line. We pluck a solution from the economics canon and convince a polling firm to let us test it. Today on the show, we head to Marist College — home of the Marist Poll — to learn how to be pollsters ourselves. We learn the great moments in polling history, the latest science of polling, and find out all the tricks that pollsters use to get people to finish their surveys. Then we get on the phone and give it a try ourselves. And offer some of our own solutions. This episode was originally published before the 2022 midterm elections. We have an update on our idea to save polling, which Marist is still testing, and we find out what it might be able to tell us about the 2026 midterms. Music: "Partyline, "The Danzig Connection, and "Saku"Read: Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletterOur weekly Indicator round-up newsletterFollow: InstagramTikTokYouTubeFacebookThis update was produced by Emma Peaslee with help from Sam Yellowhorse Kesler. It was mastered by Gilly Moon with help from Cena Loffredo. The original episode was edited by Jess Jiang. Alex Goldmark is Planet Money’s executive producer. Support public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Before an independent movie makes it to a streaming platform or a theater near you, it first needs to survive an artistic and economic gauntlet. And even for those movies that make it into elite film festivals like Sundance – it can take everything from performance stunts to corporate spycraft to seal the deal. Today on the show, we follow the ‘King of Sundance’ as he and his team try to sell their slate of movies to distributors like Netflix and Sony and Apple. We hear the behind the scenes stories about how films like Little Miss Sunshine, Napoleon Dynamite and Precious got sold. And we learn the strategies that might make the difference in whether or not a film makes it onto screens around the world. For more episodes about the entertainment industry: "Based on a true story"On the Oscars campaign trailWhy platforms like HBO Max are removing streaming TV showsThe summer I turned binge-yThe Writers Revolt (UPDATE)Read: Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletterOur weekly Indicator round-up newsletterFollow: InstagramTikTokYouTubeFacebookSupport public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.This episode of Planet Money was produced by Emma Peaslee. It was edited by Jess Jiang. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez and engineered by Annlie Huang. Alex Goldmark is Planet Money’s executive producer.Music: NPR Source Audio - "Lone Star Desert Surfer," "The Westerners," and "Tucson Arizona"See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Fifty years ago, scientists pioneering a terrifying gene-splicing technology figured out a way to collectively hit pause. Can we do it again with AI? We ask because some top AI industry leaders are saying the technology they’re pushing forward is moving too quickly … and might kill us all. They’re effectively saying, ‘Please, please regulate us! Slow us down! Tie our hands!’ But, by and large, they’re not slowing down, because they don’t want to be left behind. In other words, it’s a classic collective action problem. A type of problem that’s scary, but solvable. We’ve been here before. In 1975, a group of scientists holed up for four days on California's foggy Central Coast to stop the runaway technology of their generation: a new DNA splicing technology that they feared could cause mass death. On today’s show, how they set aside ambition and competition to stop a runaway technology. Live Show: Planet Money Live at Kilkenomics. Kilkenny, Ireland Nov. 6th - 7thRead Planet Money: Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletterOur weekly Indicator round-up newsletterFollow Planet Money: InstagramTikTokYouTubeFacebookListen to more Planet Money: Our short, daily podcast, The Indicator from Planet MoneyOver 1,000 episodes in our archive on the NPR AppMerch: NPR ShopThe Planet Money game, Sell Me A SasquatchSupport public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.This episode was produced by Vito Emanuel. It was edited by Marianne McCune and fact-checked by Sierra Juarez. It was engineered by Travis Hagan. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer. Music: NPR Source Audio - "Left Coastingg," "Going Nuts," and "Unsatisfied Reflection"See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Companies are getting billions of dollars back. How about us? It seems simple, right? We paid higher prices for imported goods because of tariffs. Then the tariffs were ruled illegal. Courts said the money paid to the U.S. government had to be refunded. Companies are getting that money now. It would seem like we, the customers, should get paid back, too. But … it’s not so simple. Once again, we’re dipping back into the drama of import tax law. We’re engrossed in the ups, downs, betrayal, and romance of … the Days of our Tariffs. In this edition: “Refunds and Regrets.” How and why some companies and people are getting their IEEPA tariff refunds and other people are out of luck. Live Show:- Planet Money Live at Kilkenomics. Kilkenny, Ireland Nov. 6th - 7thRead Planet Money: - Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life - Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletter- Our weekly Indicator round-up newsletterFollow Planet Money: - Instagram- TikTok- YouTube- FacebookListen to more Planet Money: - Our short, daily podcast, The Indicator from Planet Money- Over 1,000 episodes in our archive on the NPR AppMerch: - NPR Shop- The Planet Money game, Sell Me A SasquatchSupport public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.This episode was hosted by Kenny Malone. It was produced by Sam Yellowhorse Kesler and James Sneed. It was edited by our executive producer Alex Goldmark. It was fact-checked by Sierra Juarez and Sam Yellowhorse Kesler. It was engineered by Jimmy Keeley and Cena Loffredo. Special thanks this week to everyone who wrote in with a tale of tariff drama.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Charles Ponzi was down on his luck. In 1919, the Italian immigrant had spent a decade and a half in the U.S. He was looking for a way to get rich and tried his hand at everything — including bookkeeping, sign painting, grocery clerk, dishwasher, and librarian.He caught a lucky break in August, when he received a letter from Europe. In the envelope was an International Reply Coupon, a clever way to prepay for international postage. Ponzi realized he might be able to use these coupons to make his fortune. All he needed was investors.What happened next made him a household name. This is the story of the man behind the eponymous Ponzi scheme — a tale of financial fraud that lives up to its linguistic legacy.(Note: The original version of this episode ran in 2023.)Read Planet Money: • Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life • Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletter • Our weekly Indicator round-up newsletterFollow Planet Money: • Instagram • TikTok • YouTube • FacebookListen to more Planet Money: • Our short, daily podcast, The Indicator from Planet Money • Over 1,000 episodes in our archive on the NPR AppMerch: • NPR Shop • The Planet Money game, Sell Me A SasquatchSupport public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.This episode was produced by James Sneed. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez, mastered by Natasha Branch, and edited by Jess Jiang. It's based on the book Ponzi's Scheme, by Mitchell Zuckoff.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

It's getting pretty wild in the beverage aisle these days — from the rainbow wall of seltzers, to the increasingly strange flavors of Pepsi, to the new "functional" sodas with added fiber or supplements that supposedly offer health benefits. Where are all these new drinks coming from? And why does it seem like the options are multiplying faster than ever?Today on the show, we go behind the scenes at one of the nation’s top-secret beverage laboratories. The food scientists in this lab have quietly helped companies design many of the new drinks on the shelves these days. We taste things we have never tasted before, including a sports hydration … broth? We learn what a strawberry has in common with a block of cheese. And we discover why the business of beverages will never be the same again. Read: - Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life - Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletter- Our weekly Indicator round-up newsletterFollow:- Instagram- TikTok- YouTube- FacebookSupport public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.This episode of Planet Money was hosted by Jeff Guo. It was produced by James Sneed and Sam Yellowhorse Kesler, and edited by Jess Jiang. Vito Emanuel is our fact-checker, and Kwesi Lee engineered the show. Alex Goldmark is the executive producer of Planet Money.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Very soon, Social Security may not have enough money to make full payments to retirees. Very soon. Like by 2032, just six years from now. So what are we gonna do about it? Today on the show, we look at some of the most talked about possible solutions; and exactly whose wallets we’ll have to rifle through to find the money to pay for each. Then we’ll run the options by the Social Security Administration's former Chief Actuary. The guy Congress used to call to crunch numbers and give them the bottom line. Read: - Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life - Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletter- Our weekly Indicator round-up newsletterFollow: - Instagram- TikTok- YouTube- FacebookSupport public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.This episode of Planet Money was hosted by Erika Beras and Jeff Guo, it was produced by James Sneed, and edited by Marianne McCune. Sierra Juarez is our fact-checker, and Annlie Huang & Robert Rodriguez engineered the show. Alex Goldmark is the executive producer of Planet Money.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Wanna know who is really in the top 1%? And how they use their influence? It may not be who you think.Look beyond Silicon Valley. Look beyond Wall Street. Look beyond the “oligarchs”. There's a much larger class of wealthy Americans hiding in plain sight. And, often, they got rich in mundane ways. They own car dealerships. They sell hot dogs and frozen mini-quiches. They run waxing salons. They supply fabricated metal and urinal cakes. They are dentists.Collectively, these "Main Street millionaires" control much more wealth than the billionaire lightning rods who launch rockets into space, appear on manosphere podcasts, and have Hollywood movies made about them. Many of these millionaires have also grown rich enough to afford superyachts, 10,000-square-foot homes, and pet tigers. At the center of their story is a quiet revolution in the American economy: the rise of a particular kind of private business. On today’s show, how did the power of the “stealthy wealthy” millionaires come to rival that of the billionaire oligarchs? And, how are they shaping policies that lower their taxes and raise your prices?Read: Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletterOur weekly Indicator round-up newsletterFollow: InstagramTikTokYouTubeFacebookSupport public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.This episode was hosted by Greg Rosalsky and Sarah Gonzalez. It was produced by Emma Peaslee. It was edited by Marianne McCune with fact checking help from Sierra Juarez. It was engineered by Kwesi Lee. Alex Goldmark is Planet Money’s executive producer. Music: NPR Source Audio - "Collectible Kicks," "Blazed and Emboldened," and "Arturo’s RevengeSee pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

(Note: A version of this episode originally ran in 2024.)$40,000,000,000,000. Four commas. Thirteen zeroes. It’s an eye-popping, almost infinite-sounding pile of money. And every time the debt passes a big round number, almost everyone asks the same question: How much debt is too much?It’s maybe the most important question in macroeconomics. It’s also surprisingly hard to answer. When two economists tried to answer it back in 2010, it ignited a research slugfest that lasted a decade. We did a show on this question in 2024, outlining everything we know and don’t know about when the national debt becomes a problem. But a lot has changed. Interest rates have risen and stayed high. Spending has steamrolled ahead. Doves have become hawks. So on today’s show, we update our 2024 episode to revisit the age-old question: Is our debt finally too much? Read Planet Money: Our book: Planet Money: A Guide to the Economic Forces That Shape Your Life Our weekly longform Planet Money newsletterOur weekly Indicator round-up newsletterFollow: InstagramTikTokYouTubeFacebookSupport public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.Our original episode was produced by Willa Rubin and edited by Molly Messick. This update was reported and produced by Vito Emanuel. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez. It was engineered by Kwesi Lee. And it was edited by Alex Goldmark, Planet Money’s executive producer. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

MOD Pizza founders Scott and Ally Svenson join Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three founders about strategic expansion, plus discuss MOD’s recent acquisition.Today we meet Evan, who recently turned his Richmond-based pizza restaurant into a vegan frozen pizza company. Then Zebbie, a restaurateur in Birmingham who's looking to take his hot chicken concept on the road. And Christiane, a Los Angeles area tequila-maker on a mission to improve her industry’s labor conditions. Thanks to the founders of Udderless Plant-based Pizza, Eugene’s Hot Chicken and Valor Bebidas for being a part of our show.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to hibt@id.wondery.com or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to MOD Pizza’s founding story as told by Scott and Ally on the show in 2023.This episode was produced by Katherine Sypher with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When Ben Goodwin was growing up, the concept of healthy soda seemed as oxymoronic as jumbo shrimp. But for Ben, that presented an irresistible challenge: to create a beverage that evoked the colas and root beers of his youth, but was low in sugar and good for the gut. After years of painstaking effort and one failed brand, Ben and his partner launched Olipop in 2018. Made with fiber and prebiotics and sweetened with Stevia, it joined the growing ranks of “functional sodas,” launching first in natural food stores and spreading quickly to the big chains. This year, the brand is expected to do nearly $500 million in sales, and, as younger consumers drift away from legacy soda, Ben says Olipop will only get bigger.This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arabloui and Sam Paulson. It was edited by Neva Grant with research by Katherine Sypher. Our engineers were Robert Rodriguez and Kwesi Lee.You can follow HIBT on Twitter & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Parachute Home founder Ariel Kaye joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three founders on being mindful and strategic in their next expansion steps. Today, we meet Daen, an entrepreneur in Australia considering investment for his line of men’s grooming products after ten years of self-funding. Then Deanna, a former educator in New Jersey seeking new press for the emotional health tool she designed for children. And Meaghan, a Florida-based hard seltzer maker trying to gut-check biases in her male-dominated industry.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to hibt@id.wondery.com or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to Parachute Home’s founding story as told by Ariel on the show in 2023.This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When Seth Berkowitz was in college, he was the cookie guy on campus. He’d grown frustrated that the only food he could get delivered late at night were standards like pizza or Chinese food. He had a sweet tooth, and he craved warm, homemade chocolate chip cookies. So he took matters into his own hands and started making and delivering cookies to students at his school. The operation soon went from a silly side hustle to a real business - and then an all-consuming struggle. But today, after decades of detours, long-shot decisions, and near-bankruptcies, Insomnia Cookies is now a $350 million dollar business.This episode was produced by Alex Cheng with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce with research help from Katherine Sypher. Our audio engineers were Robert Rodriguez and Maggie Luthar.You can follow HIBT on Twitter & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Ring founder Jamie Siminoff joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three founders about balancing short- and long-term goals. Today, we meet Vico, an industrial designer in southern California who's launching a crowdfunding campaign for his patented ergonomic desk. Then Iyin, a Baltimore-based product specialist seeking to balance accessibility and profitability for her ethically-sourced chocolate brand. And Franchesca, an Atlanta area educator deliberating whether to pursue small-business certifications for her motivational classroom posters.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to hibt@id.wondery.com or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to Ring’s founding story as told by Jamie on the show in 2020.This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

With $1500 in savings and no experience in retail, Mel and Patricia Ziegler stumbled upon a clever idea: buy inexpensive Army surplus gear, refashion it into stylish clothes, and sell them in a setting that felt more like a safari than a store. With a retro- feel catalog that turned shopping into an adventure, Banana Republic caught the attention of the media, and sales grew. But so did the headaches of running the business, and in 1983, the Zieglers sold the brand to The Gap. Over the years, Banana Republic lost its distinctive, retro-Safari feel, and the Zieglers departed to start another brand, The Republic of Tea. Today, Banana Republic remains a multi-million dollar business, with hundreds of stores around the world.This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant. Our audio engineer was Kwesi Lee.You can follow HIBT on Twitter & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Supergoop! founder Holly Thaggard joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three founders about finding the right audience and introducing their brands.Today, we meet Christina, the founder of a Cincinnati cookie business who is trying to bake her business to the next level. Then Philadelphia-based engineer Andy introduces a shaving product he developed with his Navy bunkmate while they were deployed. And Erin in Illinois, who wants to make water sports safer with a life jacket upgrade.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to hibt@id.wondery.com or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to Holly tell the story of how Supergoop! was founded from her first visit to the show back in 2020.This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Gilly Moon.You can follow HIBT on Twitter & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In 2013, Nick Green set out to solve a vexing problem: in many parts of the country, it’s hard to get access to healthy groceries. As a solution, Nick and his co-founders launched an e-commerce mashup of Whole Foods and Costco, where members purchase healthy foods online at a discount.When it came time to ask venture capitalists for funding, dozens of VC’s said no–but thanks to hundreds of small checks written by health bloggers, Thrive Market pulled together enough money to launch in 2014. Within a year, the founders had proven the VC’s wrong, but still scrambled to fuel the pace of growth, while keeping the business afloat. Today, Thrive Market has over 1.5 million paid members and, last year, brought in over $500 million in sales. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Boston Beer Company founder Jim Koch joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three founders about finding product-market fit.Today, we meet Kim, whose tropical-inspired apparel company in Florida is venturing into the rum market. Then Llance from Washington, who is taking his tea-bag-soup-broth business national. And Ami, who wants potential customers to know that her Ontario-based electrical contracting company has some of the best service out there.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to hibt@id.wondery.com or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to Boston Beer Company’s founding story as told by Jim on the show in 2017.This episode was produced by Chris Maccini with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Gilly Moon.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Tara Bosch wasn’t always considered a likely contender for success. At 21 years old, she dropped out of college the summer before her junior year and moved in to her grandmother’s basement. But, with a gummy bear mold from Amazon and a sugar-free candy recipe she tinkered to perfection, Tara got to work on a wild vision: she would create a global company called SmartSweets that would revolutionize the candy aisle and become a top seller of low-sugar candies. In 2020, Tara achieved her goal and sold SmartSweets for $360 million — a mere five years after creating the brand. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce with research help from Melia Agudelo. Our audio engineers were Gilly Moon and Maggie Luthar.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram, and email us at hibt@id.wondery.com. And sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.